I am for others with Nathaniel McGuire
Nathaniel: The essence of everything that I've learned, it's so simple, the truth will set you free, right? And that like fear is a liar and it lies to you constantly. It's it is subtle. It is wise because fear can't really stop you from doing what you do. You still do it. It just,
Tiffany: I'm your host, Tiffany Sauder. And this is Scared Confident to close out season one.
This last episode, I brought back Nathaniel McGuire. If you remember, I asked him to really start this journey with me. He took me through his fear interview and in so many ways, it's such a Tiffany thing to sort of start this adventure with the most unknown thing. And that was going through the sphere interview.
And as I've walked. The last two and a half months with the knowledge of being able to give language to my fear, that experience of having spoken, my fear, that experience of having heard myself audibly talk about what does fear say to me? I brought him back to kind of normalize my own experience as I've walked with this knowledge, I wanted to ask him.
What next, what will fear now say, where will it move? What will happen? And in true Nathaniel fashion, he asks me a question first listening.
Nathaniel: So typically what happens when I take someone through this, they have this immediate awareness where now it's like a veil has been pulled back and they can see fear for what it is. They can make a distinction between them and fear, but it's a process, you know, it's like working out. So a part of what, you know, I really want to talk to you about today is just being able to scale yourself, like where you're at.
So what would you say from a scale of one to 10, 10 being that, you know, you've conquered fear, you know, you've, you're pretty much perfect in that area. And one being that. You know, you, you try to say your little fear interview and your statement, and you end up in the fetal position crying and scared, like from one to 10, where would you say that you're at?
Tiffany: I tend to probably over-index everything as a personality, but I would say, I feel like I float between a seven and a nine. And I think in some ways, um, Nervous that maybe I feel like I've solved it more than I have, but having the narrative of being able to say, I feel you fear trying to turn down my volume.
I feel you fear trying to distract me with your message. I feel you doing that and yeah. I think I'm naturally very intuitive person. And so I can start to physically feel my body respond to my mind. And that's my cue to be like, no, like you're not in charge. And it was a completely new idea to me to think about fear and my person being separate
Yes. Let me ask you this from, you said seven to nine, but in your mind, what would make it a 10.
Tiffany: I think the reason I wouldn't give it a 10 is in part this sense of wanting to have continued awareness, that if I say I'm a 10, that it feels like I don't have to try anymore at a 10 and I want to keep it in, in consciousness of that.
It's not so solved. And I might use a parallel. I've got experienced, like. Addiction to a substance. But I think about that as a parallel to say like I have to every day be conscious of the fact that I'm one sip away from, you know, becoming an alcoholic again. And in my head, I think I have that same kind of parallel narrative in my mind.
That is no, I have to keep consciousness that fear is ever present and it will move. And so I think, I feel like saying I'm a 10 is like, well, this is not a thing I have to deal with anymore. I'm going to. You know, sort of engage in different areas of sort of growth and yeah. Um, so I don't know if that's a thing, if there is a way that you sort of completely conquer it, but that's what would keep me from saying I'm a 10.
Nathaniel: Um, in my opinion, that would make you attend is that you are constantly wanting to be aware and then the humility, knowing that at any moment, this thing can overtake you again. So it's the ability to just have that self-awareness that. I am fighting this, but like an addict, you know, also have a desire to lean towards that.
It staying in that constant state that makes one attend, which is simply called self-awareness to be constantly self-aware that I need to fight this. It is in the world and every avenue it's trying to get me to be less than who I am. And fill me with anxiety and I need to be on guard, but I know you, you would say that because in your brain, you think you're tricking yourself because you're afraid of, you know, um, that, that superiority complex, you don't want to, you know, associate yourself with that.
So, um, but, but nine or 10 I think is, is very accurate. Just watching how you're responding to this,
Tiffany: to give listeners a little bit of background. I sent. Nathaniel an email. And I said a truth that I've claimed for myself. And this was probably this verse in the Bible was shown to me probably seven years ago for God does not give us a spirit of fear, but of love and of power and of self control.
That that verse gave me something focus on because people will say don't be afraid. And I'm like, okay, but what do I do instead? And like, you love. Which is about making a situation about others and not yourself to me, power to me that was claiming my talents and stepping into them fully, and then self control, like the discipline and control over your time and resources.
So that you're, again, just, you're not all over the place, but you have a sense of sort of control and that starts to quiet the fear. And so I'd worked on that principally in my mind. And it's, it's been a big part of the way that I've overcome my mind saying you're too young for this. You're too small for this, but I knew there was like this next place.
And I, and I think when I heard about what you did. And I shared that verse with you. We were like, that's been a profound part of the work you do as well. And so this, I think this tool, this message might how my antidote to fear is even stepping into that word power with more tools. That's how I think about it.
It's like I would sort of put my hands on my hips figuratively and be like, this is my power stance. You know, like, this is how. I'm standing in power. I'm not going to move, but I didn't have a way to control my mind in a way that I feel like the sphere interview has completely changed. That for me,
Nathaniel: that verse you haven't been given a spirit of fear or pneuma.
It can be seen as I haven't given you a personality of fear. So it makes a distinction that this fear is a personality. And when I began to look at. The etymology of it, it kind of blew me away because as I started to do these interviews, it's very clear yeah. A personality and I've seen the same personality, but when I do it, so I know when it's there.
I know when to talk to it. Yeah. Because it's, it's kind of arrogant. It just rises out and it, it, it basically has a way of saying, they're not going to let me go, man. You're not going to convince them to let me go. No way. You know, there's a smirk that even overcomes people's faces sometimes. And when you make that distinction, you start to see that, wow, that's really not me.
And so now your fight is not against yourself. Your fight is against that. Well, it
Tiffany: becomes a very familiar and practiced personality. Like what you're saying? Like, it, it does is very clever in the sense that it, it like connects to your. I'll say natural self in a way that it becomes very difficult to delineate and as you act and operate through this sphere, and it's interesting, I can even look back at my younger self and say, like, if I had the words to say it, even I was giving a presentation, I talked about.
All these awards that we've won as a company element three, I was like, if I had the words to say it at 32 years old, what I would have said is I am afraid I can't compete in a city like Indianapolis. And so I need hardware to prove differently to myself. Like my 40 year old self can look back at that whole thing and be like, oh, my word, you were such a collector of external approval because you were trying to quiet this fear.
How much simpler if I said that, right. Wow. That would have been a straighter line. Yeah. But it's interesting to be able to even look back into your past and see, oh, my self today has narrative for this act that you put on and. That people who were complimentary of would say, she's competitive, she's driven, she's wanting to lead the market.
Like whatever. Those would be like positive ways to sort of say, no, it's just a veil for insecurity. If you'd really have been able to look under the covers. And it's powerful to be able to say that with such freedom. Now
Nathaniel: I was listening to, I think it was Oprah and she was talking about one of the reasons she was so rich.
It's cause she didn't spend anything for years and, and, and just really focused on saving. And a lot of the dude was she has a fear of poverty. She never wanted to go back. And some of these things, we don't realize that we worship people for actually just their fears manifesting in different ways and we praise and worship them for it.
And she was kind of honest about, you know, that, but fear just, it's so intertwined in our lives in ways that. We can't comprehend and it runs so many things. It's just a very powerful thing. And that's what, um, is so powerful when it like phrases, like knowing who you are in Christ phrases, like just knowing who you really are not being the victim.
Like what that really means. So in, in so many ways, when you talk about this other self, think about the crowd that you were trying to prove with this stuff. Was a voice in your head. Totally. That was running everything you want it. Look, look, look, voice in your head. Look at all these things. Meanwhile, everyone around you is saying, you're awesome at what you do.
This is awesome. We're rewarding you because of what we see. But you were having this conversation in your head that was running most of your life. And that's really all of us.
Tiffany: I feel that in my life, as I listened back to my fear interview, one of the things I said was. Fear tells me stepping into this project, stepping into all of what I think I'm being asked to be is going to leave me alone and that my relationships will get smaller.
And there's no way I can overstate how that is the exact opposite of everything that's happened in my life over the last three months. Everything from just renewed, like. Intellectual, like in intimacy with my husband, my friendships are at a different place, the vulnerability by which people text and share their stories, the conversations they're having in their homes with their spouses.
It's been so much richness into my life. And I know fear is a liar, but to be able to like literally have a start to end vignette that just like put it on stage and proved it. So clearly to me, it was just. It was remarkable.
Nathaniel: The essence of everything that I've learned or it's so simple, the truth will set you free.
Right. It's so simple. And that like, fear is a liar and it lies to you constantly. It's uh, it is subtle. It is wise. Okay. Fair. Can't really stop you from doing what you do. You still do it. It just tries to torment you because it can't stop Tiffany, but it'll torment you while you're doing what you're doing.
But the other door it's trying to sneak in is basically telling you, like, Don't get too powerful. Cause you're going to fall. Basically. Don't accept too much that you really got this thing because you know, you're going to fall, Tiffany, like, come on. What are you doing? So don't, you dare say you're doing really, really, really well, but it's constant, right?
It just jumps from one thing to another. And then the other thing is just, it's relentless. It doesn't stop. It's an addict. One of the scariest ones I did actually, I was doing the fear interview with a guy. And he said something I'll never forget because it's the essence of, of being an addict in the middle of it.
I said something like, uh, you like that, or you have peace about that. And he looked at me and said, I don't feel happiness or peace, or like, I feel compulsion. I'm just compulsive. And the essence of an addict or being caught if anybody knows of it, even if you're addicted to coffee or anything, when you're just stuck in that.
And you, you can't, it's like a thirst, you can't fulfill. And it's like, until I get this and it might be a day or a minute or an hour, but imagine your life and your all day, you can never quench this thirst. And you're just trying to do something evil to someone. And that's what it's relentless. It's just constantly stuck in a state of attacking someone to do them harm.
And so filling that energy, I now know like fear doesn't give up. It comes at every angle, you know, it doesn't stop. So that's why it was awesome to hear you say, like, you know, that, you know, you have to stay in this state of readiness and knowing that it can overcome any moment. It's always looking for some kind of crack, you know, to come at you about, I
Tiffany: think the other thing I've realized, because we had this launch party that you came to.
And again, that was another one of those things where I was like, Well, I hope people come cause we're paying the bill regardless, you know? Cause it's a vulnerable thing to be like, are people gonna come? And my mind took a picture of that room in a way that I feel like I show it to fear to say, you say these words to me, fear, you look at this picture because those people showed up for me and I think.
That has also been a powerful piece of this is like, it is having the language when fear tells me you're. So self-absorbed like, you're going to fall into just. A crap pile of self-indulgence. If you have the success, I'm like, no, no, no, no fear. You forgot. I am for others. That's why I pursued discomfort because my growth means I can lead others further.
That's why I'm doing this. And I say that to it. And then I also have these like pictures that I show it.
Nathaniel: It's so powerful. How now, when fear tells me this is going to happen. I now know, thank you dummy. I now know that's not, what's going to happen. It's like whatever fears, relentless with coming against, it knows what's going to happen if you do that.
And it's simply, and so a part of the problem that it poses once someone does the fear interview, like it's like a siren. It's like, oh, fear. I now know what direction to go, because you're being relentless about this one thing. I think it's important to Tiffany too. Say the simple thoughts and the words it says when you thought about having that launch party, right?
Like what were some of the thoughts that you had about having this launch party? Sending out the invites? Right. What were some of the things fear was saying to you about that fear
Tiffany: was saying you're like making a big to-do about nothing about yourself. Yes. This podcast is a pimple on the face of the earth and you're doing this thing.
You're acting like it's so important. Yeah, exactly. And then I brought, I brought, I had an hour beforehand where I brought some people I sorta know, but not really. And I was like, oh, my word, they're going to be like, Look, she's added again, whatever that means, but that was how I felt fear was saying that you're making it all about yourself.
And yeah, I mean, I thought about like all kinds of things. If it's cold, people are going to be annoyed that came out. If it doesn't go perfectly, it's going to be a waste of their time. And these people are really. You know, even if they're not like they've got families and people who care about them and they're going to be bugged.
Nathaniel: Yeah. It's everybody, there's the president and you're wasting their time. They have better things to do. Yeah. Those simple thoughts are so important that we don't always share. And we're constantly broad, right? Like all of us are hearing these voices on a consistent everyday basis. We don't realize it they're loud.
They control our lives and we don't talk about it. And it's just little simple stuff like that. You know, that's why assumptions are insane. Like, don't do it. I don't care how clear you hear it because this energy exists and it's constantly in
Tiffany: our mind. Well, I think the other thing I experienced at the launch party is intuitively I knew I wanted to do it, but I had not communicated in my own mind explicitly.
Why? And so fear was filling in the narrative. About why. And when I felt that I literally feel my breathing gets shallow when fear is like in my head. And I, I remember thinking about like, why am I actually doing this? Like, what is in my real person soul about this? And it was really about it being a profound, thank you to the people who had played.
An unnecessary, like they weren't paid to help me. They just spoken to my life at different times and for really nothing in return, it was just a selfless gift that they gave me. And as a result, I get to be here in my life. And that is amazing. And when I could show again, fear of that narrative to say, no, no, this is why I'm doing it because these people.
Are amazing. And I want to celebrate them. Then my energy for it, like changed completely because I was able to turn the intuitive to explicit in my own head. And then I could say that back to fear and that, to me, I think as a pattern for me, probably whenever I'm intuitively doing something, like I feel just pulled towards it.
Fear starts to fill in the explicit. Yes. And that's a trigger for me to say, no, what's in my heart. Really? What really is in my heart. It's not to bring attention to myself. I do want to advance the cause because understanding fear has played such a powerful role in my own life and development. And so that's what I want to amplify.
And if I can be a voice for that and willing to go through the work to learn how to do that, but that's what it's about. And. I don't know it just, but it was an interesting realization of when it's just rolling around in there in an ish kind of way, fear has a ton of power.
Nathaniel: So that's why this also points out who you really are.
And when I'm doing the fear interview, that's why it was so important for me to talk to you. Because I can. And so many things to have to do with like where you grew up, how you grew up. People have different fears from whether they be a man or a woman culturally that have different fears. So I could hear you have this fear of making everything about you, but your story says, you don't do that.
It's not even really you, there are so many people. Tiffany that should have that fear. I wish they had that fear. Like I wish you would think about fear wants you scare them. That's not their issue. Your issue is, is making sure you're not making things about you. Your story says you don't do that, but fear's relentlessly trying to make you be someone and say, you're someone that you're not, and you're spending all this energy when Tiffany, sometimes there are times.
To make things. How about you? Not always a bad thing. Yeah. Even if there is a ton of make something about you, fear of like they're a year ago, see what I mean? Look, look, she's making it all about her and will literally like torment you about that. But it's an essence. It's not even you to do that. That's not your issue is making everything about you.
You're you're trying to do something. And include others and think about others
Tiffany: because human beings, we so desperately want to live a life that's authentic and true and intimate and emotional, but we don't have the tools or the courage to step into that ourselves. And so we watch and listen to other people's narratives to pull ourselves into that place.
And. My fear at the beginning of this project was that as I stepped into my own story and my own truth and my own reality and my own emotion, that it would create distance between me and the people around me and what has been made true again and again, and again, is that story is such an intimate unifier.
And if we want to step into close relationship with people, it's not through logic. It is through emotion. And the way that we experience emotion is by stepping truly into the story of our lives.
Nathaniel: You have to tell your story in order to empower people. But the story is about you. It is all about you. And when they see, oh, Tiffany did that, like she has a bunch of fears are, Tiffany's kind of crazy in her mind. I am too well. I didn't know she could do that. She went through that. Well, I can go through that too.
So it is it's, it's, uh, it's just clearly a balance though. So, I mean, in our minds, we actually think like that in ways we don't comprehend. So it's really all about us and, and we don't always realize that, but yeah, you have a real fear. Of, you know, making things about yourself, but yet, sometimes things are about you and it's good
Tiffany: title of this episode is I am for others.
And it feels strange that the way that you most give to others is by sharing story of self. But I'm hopeful that season one has been. An act of courage, sort of going first where I am patient one in this project of stepping completely into fear and that if I can demonstrate what happened in my own life, what's happening in the relationships around me, what's happening in the things I lead.
The others will have courage to step more fully into their own stories. And so, as we look forward into this podcast, it will be about speaking and finding and sharing the stories of others and this unity and the courage to face an audibly, give voice or fear. So now that I'm at this place of realization and, and I look forward, what's your crystal ball based on what you've seen fear do.
What can I expect kind of from here?
Nathaniel: So I think that we're fears really attacking you is this sense of Tiffany making everything about herself. My crystal ball prediction about you is that fear is always going to attack you like that. If somebody wanted to be really mean. And so we're going to look for this and I'm going to, I'm going to, um, preemptively destroy this for you.
If you send Tiffany, sorry. And you say, Tiffany, it's all about you. Okay. If you send that to Tiffany, she's going to know that's a lie. That's not true because that's what it is that you fear the most.
Tiffany: I find it hard. It's hard for me to discern what is just confidently stepping into what I've been made to be and what is yeah.
Like you say, making it about me. And I I'm aware, we talked about this like little things that I do. To like, keep us my, even my kids humble. Like, I, I think I might've shared with you. Like, I there's like all these little rooms at church with cribs in them and there's one room that's like the monitor's broken and it's like a little bit cold and that's the one I put my kid in.
Cause I'm like, that's good enough for her. We'll be fine. I do, I totally put her in there. And I'm like, that is a riot that's part of me saying. We're not too good for the broken one and I don't want to be too good for the broken one. And I have a hard time. It's interesting how I'm acting those things out.
Nathaniel: Yes. But it's real. And the moment you realize I'm not doing this to stay in a humble state and not be arrogant, I'm doing this because fear is. Telling me to do it. So that's really why I'm doing it. The essence of everything it does is it's telling you, this is the way we're going to keep you say, Tiffany, stick your little girl in that little, totally
Tiffany: frozen and die shortly.
I do. I stick her in there. I'm like, totally. I want them to be tough, but that is part of fear saying that they're not going to be whole on their own, but I have to create that for them.
Nathaniel: Those are constant. And so those are the things that, um, you will have to pay attention to that anything that has to do with you wanting you or your family to stay humble, not to become arrogant, anything that has to do with wanting to teach them, don't make things all about them.
You may go to an extreme and there is no balance, but it's just because fear is trying to scare you about that. When really Tiffany, it's not really in your story. It's nice to know. It's not really in your story to do that. So it doesn't make any sense that you're trying so hard not to do something you don't do.
So the moment you really realize, like every time you have this overwhelming thought about you better stay humble. It's like you should know that that's fear. So really overcoming fear in that moment for you would be going to the best room and saying, Hey kids, go in there. That would make you like your nails and like white knuckling it, like, am I doing the right thing?
Just let my kids go in there. There's heat and air conditioning in there. The more you realize that the more it'll allow you to have actually more energy, because a lot of energy is taken from you trying every day to keep safe. Because in your mind, this is the antidote for not becoming Eric. Don't buy a brand name stuff on the raggedy room.
And really, no, that's not how you stay humble, but it's your heart.
Tiffany: It's your heart actually. Yeah. That's what God is looking at. Connects. You asked me about like, basically kind of like my spiritual worldview and the fear interview. And I said, my energy is that there's never enough work done. And I have a hard time making time for my heart.
And this is that same thing. The works. Yes. Chasing away fear. That's
Nathaniel: another fear is what being a workaholic. Which makes sense. I mean, you come from a farmers family. Yeah. Right, right. Like that makes sense. Yeah. From early in the morning, it was a certain work ethic. There, there are definitely. Yeah. So it's kind of hard to balance because when you do some of the things that you've done and you're successful, it's hard not to just say, oh, um, I worked really hard and if I don't work, I can't help others and I can't help myself.
And it's hard to balance it with yes, you work hard. And also you're using your gifts and the gifts make room. So there's some people don't work hard at all. They just use their gifts. Essence of fears
Tiffany: is to Rob you of your kids. If I'm being honest, you know, from,
Nathaniel: from that philosophy fear of saying, look at them, I'm not even working hard.
I'll tear them literally, that's it, it's a constant smell at all. That is a constant thing that, um, people don't realize that it's just fear is constantly, you know, and that's what makes us judgmental really is. It's just the things that fear saying, but. Now, Tiffany, those fear, that workaholic piece and you learning how learning basically it's okay to make things about you in certain areas like that.
That will be the constant battle. And like you said, with addiction, that is a constant battle that never stopped.
Tiffany: So Nathaniel is you see what fear says to me today? Will that be the same? Do you think, as I continue on this journey,
Nathaniel: There is a movie, uh, man, what is it called? Devil's advocate. And it, it, it it's really well done because it's the essence of how fear works.
But at the very end, this entity that is harassing this guy, he comes back and the main character Keanu Reeves, like escapes, this kind of this trap fear lays for him. He becomes this lawyer who makes all this money successful, but he basically in essence, is being attempted to sell assault. Well, he doesn't do it at the end.
So then fear comes back around to them and the canneries is a lawyer and he does something really good and honest. And so fear comes back around and says to him, Hey, I'm going to write you write a article in the paper about you being this do gooder lawyer. It's going to really, I can see this really taken off and he goes to say like, that would be, and he just stops and says, you know what?
I don't want to be anything to anybody right now. The essence of all that is that fear went at that angle of making a big time. Lori puts that down and then he comes up this other angle to make him this really humble guy, but it was just still fear. And that's how fear works. It will attack you in one area.
And you're kind of overcome that area. And then it jumps to another area why I said that is you talked about when you had the event about the podcast on one angle, it's telling you no, one's going to show up. And then on the other angle, it's telling you, when they do show up and you become popular, you're going to fall.
So it just jumps from this extreme to the other. But as you overcome it in some areas, yeah, you have to be very aware. That it then can jump in an entirely other area. And so the essence of it is just knowing that when you feel something overwhelmingly scaring you and telling you that this is the way to be safe, that's always
Tiffany: as I sit here at the end of season one, I wondered at the beginning of this journey, what it would feel like to sit in the seat in this moment. I think back to the fears that I had about this. Experience that my friends closest to me, my family, the people who know me most that they would in some ways sort of market, not externally, cause they're too nice for that.
But I expected that maybe they would and to have felt such warmth and love on the exact opposite end of that. And just a lot of encouragement and the courage that it has taken to be vulnerable has been such a gift to me. I think at the. No event that we had to really share the story of secure, confident with my network and the people that I love and have played such a big role in my life to physically see them standing there with me will be a moment.
My mind will go back to, I suspect for the rest of my life. I also wanted this journey, this project to bring me closer with my husband and with my family. And I had some concerns that it wouldn't be that way you heard in our conversation that I'm so external and I'm probably err on the side of oversharing and he is more internal and more private.
And I wanted to respect who he is and that balance in our family culture, but also step completely into this experience so that I didn't feel like I was shortchanging. I think my own external therapy that needed to happen and sort of the vulnerable sharing that I wanted to really bring to this experience.
And in so many ways what's actually played out, has been the exact opposite of what my fears told me it would be. And it's just yet another example where fear is such a liar. I just feel so much gratitude for the people who have been on this experience with me. And I'm really excited to begin. To step fully into the awareness and understanding that I am for others.
That is why I continue to put myself into such challenging projects and experiences and continue to work so hard to grow it's. As I think about those people who have led me in my life and their willingness to step into discomfort so that they could bless me. With their lessons and the things that they'd learned and the risks that they've taken and the stuff that they tried, it's only because they courageously lived big, that they had things to share with me.
And I just feel such a passionate call to leading that life so that I have the maximum amount to be able to give the people around me. I think what's different about who I am is that the things that go on in my head. I'm now claiming externally. I'm actually saying it out loud. I'm not just allowing these kind of secret thoughts to stay there and.
I also think disconnecting really intentionally from the way it was received, not being important to the journey was a really important process of self-acceptance to me while I have gotten just such wonderful feedback from the show. If that wouldn't have been the case, I got to a place where I was okay.
No matter how it was received, because I wanted to be able to be pure to the journey. And I wanted to be able to be pure to the message in my head and not look for other people to validate. The project, the thing, the creative journey that I needed to go on. And so for me, as somebody who looks for other people's approval in so many ways, I think this was a step of accepting myself.
Before I started the journey so that I could be completely true to the creative process. I cannot do this alone. So if you would be willing to help me on this journey of reaching a hundred thousand people, I would be so blessed if you would follow along and take this episode that you listened to, or your favorite one and text it to two friends.
This is not about ourselves. This is about helping other people on their journeys of living. Full and complete lives in a way that has intimacy and closeness, where we can change. What's going on as a thank you for helping me. I am gifting one fear interview to a listener. Puts your name in the ring for that through texting me, text me the word fear to (317) 350-8921 text the word fear, F E A R, to (317) 350-8921.