Living a Life of And with Jackie Hermes

[00:00:00] Jackie Hermes: there is no timeline. You know, there's no prescribed timeline to get anywhere, and you can take however long you want, and you don't have to like, work yourself half to death to try to achieve something on some self imposed timeline, so, I don't know, just slow down and enjoy it.

[00:00:37] Tiffany Sauder: This week, we talked with Jackie Hermes. She is certainly someone has a lot of ands in her life. She's a wife. She's a mom to three kids. Two of them are adopted. She as a founder and a CEO of an agency. She's a top voice on LinkedIn and a speaker and a podcast host. I mean, wild. It was an excellent conversation.

I think my biggest takeaway from this was that. We all have this moment in our lives where our doing our loving our creating our giving starts to move from being the gift we're giving to the world to some level of toxicity that is no longer serving us and we have to find the rest pause button and I loved how Jackie talked about how she started her journey of saying, look, I've got to stop walking around like an empty bucket.

So tired, so grumpy, so not in my best self to be able to serve the people and the things around me. that was one of my biggest reminders and takeaways from this conversation. Listen in.

I'm so glad to meet you. I, uh, feel like I know you a little online and then I think Bob Ruffalo like told me or something. He's like, you've got to meet her. You guys need to connect. So thanks for making the time.

okay. I want to start with a question. maybe you've had it before, but just sort of like, instead of it being biographical of like, blah, blah, blah, blah, when you were a little girl laying in bed at night. What did you dream of?

[00:02:56] Jackie Hermes: Ooh. I don't know. I've always had really wild dreams that were like Not really about a future or anything they were like about travel and weird animals and being surrounded by all these different people. And I still have those dreams, just very, very vivid. I don't know, like a big, big imagination.

Just, I can cook up like a hundred different ideas of all the different things that I want to do. And I'm totally still like that. Like, I feel like I have 10 careers and five different lives ahead of me.

[00:03:37] Tiffany Sauder: So do you think that spirit of like the adventurer and like wanderer Is like being played out in your life today, just in a different narrative. Like there's not fanciful animals, but like there is wildlife in the life of an entrepreneur.

[00:03:53] Jackie Hermes: I'm totally like that though. Like I've always had pets and I always have traveled a lot and, had lots of different business ideas and yes, I mean, as an entrepreneur, it's like that every day is a weird adventure and you kind of never know what's going to happen.

And I feel like that's why I'm able to have such a good attitude about everything every day. Cause I'm just like. You know, like what's going to happen today and everything that happens, you have to laugh about it, you know, nothing's perfect and nothing ever goes how you think it's going to go.

And I almost just stopped even coming up with what I expect to happen. and I'm just like, all right, well, let's see how it's going to go. when I go to therapy and talk to my therapist about my habit of predicting and like me looking into the future and scenario planning to try to figure out what to expect and prepare myself for different situations.

That's one thing that I've been working on is like letting go of my need to know what's going to happen and just like stepping into whatever will be. And I think that's a big thing that you have to do as an entrepreneur. I love, talking about therapy. First three minutes. Here we go.

[00:05:06] Tiffany Sauder: I love it. Was risk modeled for you when you were growing up? Like, did you see this life that you live in?

[00:05:13] Jackie Hermes: yes and no, my parents had lots of different interests. Like my dad was involved in tons of different organizations. He was traveling all over the place and he was super overcommitted. It looked cool to me at the time. And now as I get older, and talk to him about it, I realize how hard that probably must've been for him.

So, yeah, I would say it was, modeled for me in some way. Not the same way as it's playing out for me, but yeah, in some way.

[00:05:42] Tiffany Sauder: when I was like reading through some of your LinkedIn posts, I saw this theme of like, Learning to rest is is it I'm like wondering if that's a journey that you've been on like figuring out I have got to learn how to rest and I have got to be okay with Naming stress and I have got to be okay with maybe things not being okay So, I don't know but I'm sort of like themes that I'm pulling out of as you're saying like this is the stuff life has Taught me

that there's Some things in those buckets true

[00:06:15] Jackie Hermes: Yeah, it's everything that I write on LinkedIn is really like the message that I need for myself and I'm writing it because I need to hear it and everyone's like, Oh wow, like so much wisdom. And I'm like, well, actually I'm telling myself this today because I need to reiterate that I need to be okay sitting down and resting and doing these things.

Like. Five years ago, I couldn't sit down and sit still. And I was just like beating myself up all the time and feeling guilty and whatnot. And it's funny, my husband's totally like that. Like I was out of town. Last weekend. And he did all these chores that I was supposed to do. And I was like, thank you so much.

It's so nice that you did that. And he was like, well, it was just because I can't sit still. And I was like, well, you could have taken the credit one. but two, dude, you gotta, you gotta figure out how to sit down and sit still because Now that I have figured out a little bit more how to rest and how to take care of myself and just like how to get enough sleep, man, I have such a better attitude.

I feel better every single day. I'm nicer to my kids. I'm nicer to myself. I'm a better leader. We do an NPS survey every year internally. So the team gets to talk about how much they like showing up at work, how much they would recommend people they know to come and work at the company. And the scores this year were the highest they've ever been.

We didn't have anyone score us under an eight for the first time ever. And I was like, dang, this is, this is really cool. And I think it reflects in the fact that like, We're preaching to the leaders and getting everyone on board with, like, taking care of themselves and making sure that, like, cause that all starts from the top.

I'm rereading Fierce Conversations and I just got to the part where they're talking about how the fish rots from the head and, like, When you are rotting from the head, you're not taking care of yourself and you're showing up poorly. That is the message that goes to everyone that you should be overworking yourself and you should be, you know, who cares if you don't sleep, sleep when you're dead, everything's about work.

[00:08:26] Tiffany Sauder: What got your attention to say like past behaviors, past habits, like Jackie's maxed out self does not serve like where I'm going. This is not going to work. Or is it another leader you saw? Was it something that broke? Like, what got your attention?

[00:08:43] Jackie Hermes: Just like feeling like shit, honestly. I don't know if I should be swearing, feeling bad,

[00:08:49] Tiffany Sauder: Mhm.

[00:08:50] Jackie Hermes: breaking down. I don't know if you have been there, but like seeing the signs multiple times that like, I was nearing that breaking point and then not being able to stop before I got there, which is very frustrating, And just like getting to that point where I feel so bad that I can't stop myself from like sliding down that hill and feeling terrible and like not being able to get out of bed or like getting really sick.

So I was like, dude, I can't do this anymore. Yeah. So getting to that realization and like figuring out, I feel like once you get to that point where you can see the signs coming and you know, you're overworking yourself and you're going to get to that breaking point. Yeah. and you can't figure out how to stop it, we should be able to stop it when we can see the signs.

[00:09:36] Tiffany Sauder: I think that's very overwhelming for people because there's a change process that has to be ingested that people feel like I don't have time to change because I don't have time for anything. So, like, how did you start that process?

[00:09:52] Jackie Hermes: I feel like it's all in little tiny everyday things. and I think that's where a lot of people make mistakes. I've done that a hundred times, right? It's like when you want to get in shape and you're like, I'm going on a diet. I'm joining a gym. I'm doing two hours of HIIT every day.

And I'm gonna,start on like this big grand plan. And And then in a week you're like, well, that didn't work. And you're back where you were at. I started wearing this thing, the whoop, in 2020 and it just like noticing, right, noticing things like, Oh, I'm not putting myself in bed for enough time. Noticing things like. Alcohol's really freaking bad for me. And when I have certain amounts of alcohol or certain times, or when I eat at certain times, I sleep really poorly. Right? And noticing things that are changing the way that I feel. And when you notice them over time, you can make small changes.

I've been wearing this thing for almost four years, like a long process of just making really teeny tiny changes. It doesn't have to be like a big,

change.

[00:11:01] Tiffany Sauder: the other thing I observe is like when you're an entrepreneur, a couple of your kids are adopted. You grew up in a household where like your dad was probably serving a lot of different communities and boards and things like that. Like we are servers. We are people who give their time to other people.

We build things so that other people have. Places and homes and feel close, which can create a world where your own needs and wants and like what you want out of life and how you feel sometimes is irrelevant when you say yes to really big, hard things, but that can also be. Like a bad habit at some point, you had to be like, I have to be a customer of my own time.

I have to be a customer in my own life. I like, I have to, like you said, like we can't rot from the head. that, we kind of talked about the outside game of like having a whoopstrap and going to bed earlier. Those are like physical things you're doing, but there's kind of this like underlying belief probably that maybe also had to pivot.

Can you speak to that?

[00:12:02] Jackie Hermes: Yeah. Like. the belief that like you're worth spending time to make yourself feel good or like tell me more

[00:12:10] Tiffany Sauder: Yeah. And just like, if you're going to go to bed two hours earlier, you're not doing something else.

and so what is that? Maybe it was watching TV, but my like hunches, it was like serving something that you cared about or, you know, feeding into your company or mentoring young women, or you know what I mean?

Like something has to give, you can't just say it's not an eternally additive game. And maybe the question is, was it a process to begin to give yourself permission To say no to external things so that you could say yes to like internal things.

[00:12:42] Jackie Hermes: I think you have to look at why you're doing those external things. I think that COVID really changed a lot of the way I was operating in my life. Like I was traveling every two or three weeks pre COVID. I was at events two, three, four nights a week. I was gone all the time. I was getting up at 5 AM to go to the gym every single morning.

I was not getting enough sleep and making all of these decisions that I I think fed my ego. They felt really good. They were helping grow the business, I looked good. I was in the gym constantly, it was a lot of things that I think looked really good from the outside. And when I took a step back and I was like, I mean, we were forced right to sit in our houses and I was forced to look at everything I was doing and be like, who is this serving really, doing a lot of the events and stuff.

I definitely was serving other people. Like I was running women's entrepreneurship week and I mean, we produced 60 events in a week to serve women entrepreneurs in Milwaukee. It was freaking insane. Um, I mean, we did it and we did it multiple years in a row and I got to help that live on by transitioning that to another group of women and serving on the board, like, I got to be part of the founding group and it's kind of like, I, busted my butt.

I put in so much time and I'm really proud of what I did and I don't have to like do all of the physical labor to Be of value, I think like my love language is acts of service. And sometimes I think that I have to be like of physical service to people all the time to be of value. And I have to like, um, learn that, right.

like anytime a friend is going through something hard, I'm like, what can I do for you? And I'm like, you know, a friend was just at hospital locally with her daughter for like five days in like a really scary situation. And I'm like, what do you need? Do you need me to go to your house an hour away and get you clothes?

and it's like, do I really have time for that? You know, I don't, but that's how I feel like, I am of value and I do think that you have to retrain your brain out of that and know that you can be of value in, in other ways. So, yeah, I think I was like shocked out of it and you have to, learn other ways to, contribute.

[00:15:12] Tiffany Sauder: we talked before I pushed record here about the transition recently in your business of you putting a president in place and you're the founder, right? so walk me through. That choice and decision, I, you know, I like can feel it in my gut of like, okay, you know, we're going to do this. What was that process look like?

I think you had somebody internally step into the role. Is that right? so yeah, what informed that kind of the stage in your life, stage of the business?

[00:15:40] Jackie Hermes: well, she's been with me since almost the beginning, so she was one of the very first employees and she has been at the business for almost nine of 11 now years, which made I think the decision pretty easy. She's also been asking to be a shareholder for many years. So, I think the time was right and I also really had a lot of opportunity to develop her over the years and challenge her in, developing herself and becoming, like a better coach, a better leader.

I think we really developed each other over the last five years to become better leaders in general. And so It felt like the right time. I don't know. I operate on, gut feeling, a lot. And as we were approaching kind of a decade in business and we changed how our management was structured, a little bit over the last year.

And I thought it was perfect timing to bring her in at the turn of the year. And honestly, there couldn't be anyone more deserving. Than her of something like that. And we trust each other implicitly. because we've been together for so long. it's almost like we share a brain and that makes it, that makes

[00:16:50] Tiffany Sauder: Uh huh.

[00:16:59] Jackie Hermes: A little bit of both. So, I mean, she had been in a head of operations role, a head of people role. She's done a lot of those things already. but I have backed out of, some of the like operational decision making, and she is doing a lot more holding me accountable and how I'm running the business, which is cool.

It's something that I need. You know, um, I've had a business coach for a long time who just tells me exactly how it is. and I need to be challenged and I need to be held accountable. And it's nice to have more sources that will do that. Cause it's hard to find that accountability, when you're running a company as the solo founder because there's not a lot of people that even have enough information to hold you

[00:17:43] Tiffany Sauder: Mm hmm. Yeah, I love that. I'm excited for you in that. very similar actually to my journey. The guy who runs the business had been moved to me for a decade. And so there is a sense of, you know, somebody's Character, you know, like the underside of their hands,

I feel like I know he could be in a room of a million people and I would like be able to see his walk.

Like that's, I just don't know this human being and yeah. And when you're going to trust them, I shifted the leadership team to report to him and that was a big deal. Cause as a founder, a lot of them came to work for you, like,

you know, The business, they're like, it'll work or it won't. We'll see, like there's risk in small business.

We'll kind of be along for the ride, but they're really saying yes to Jackie. And so that can be startling and hard on a culture. And so I'm glad that that's been a good move for everybody.

[00:18:34] Jackie Hermes: Yeah. It has. I'm really excited to see what happens in the future, too. It's been really, really positive so far, and it's so nice to have just that partner and sharing, like, every little detail of the business and, like I said, that accountability is so important. It's fantastic as we review financials and she's poking into every little corner.

I'm like, Oh, I, I'm a creative,

like I hardly, you know, I don't even want to look at that stuff. So please take it over. This is amazing. Love it.

[00:19:06] Tiffany Sauder: That's great. can we spend a little time digging into your journey and becoming like a working mom, you know, that transition, your kids are all teenagers now, but, did you grow up with a working mom? Did she stay at home? What did that kind of look like? And then kind of what that journey has been like for you.

[00:19:24] Jackie Hermes: My mom was a young mom. So she had me when she was 23 and she's always been a hairstylist, but she kind of like worked part time to I remember she worked in our basement for a while and would like take clients in the basement, which I'm pretty sure was illegal. And then I think

[00:19:45] Tiffany Sauder: Every small town had one of those. Mine did.

[00:19:48] Jackie Hermes: I'm pretty sure someone like, Called her in because then she had to go into a salon because we'd be like playing in the other room while she was like doing people's hair in the basement. and my dad was always like, he was an air traffic controller. He was the head of the air traffic controllers union nationally.

he was like a local politician and he, so he was involved in like a bazillion things and he traveled a lot and whatnot. So she really did like the main. the lion's share of the work at home. And she was really involved a lot locally too, with like different local organizations.

So I think they both like showed what it was like to like serve the community and serve other people. And I did get to see, like, even with her being at home, it kind of looked like a job to me at a young age, which I think was an interesting, Interesting view.

[00:20:43] Tiffany Sauder: Like, what do you remember seeing that made you think that?

[00:20:46] Jackie Hermes: I think it was because she was working in the house and balancing everything, you know, like it was a different, I don't, I don't think it was common to see parents working in the house at that time, you know? So she was working in the house and then in between her actual work in the house, then she was.

Doing her other work in the house, you know, so then she's doing laundry and the cooking and the organizing the kids and then she's doing her other work. So it's kind of how we work today. You know, like what my kids see me doing. but I had, I guess the privilege of seeing her do it. So it kind of all looked like a job, I

[00:21:22] Tiffany Sauder: Yeah. It's really interesting for sure. so you have two adapted and one bio kids. So what were the ages that kids came into your life for you?

[00:21:32] Jackie Hermes: so I was 24 when I had my son, so also fairly

[00:21:36] Tiffany Sauder: Uh huh.

[00:21:37] Jackie Hermes: and he is now 13, and then my daughter, who is 17, my ex husband and I adopted together when she was 9.

[00:21:48] Tiffany Sauder: Okay.

[00:21:49] Jackie Hermes: My daughter who is 13, my current husband, new husband, he and his ex wife adopted as a baby.

[00:21:57] Tiffany Sauder: Whoa.

[00:21:58] Jackie Hermes: a crazy Brady bunch. And we have all of, I have also two former foster daughters, one of which is still relatively involved in our life.

And I talked to her mom and we have all of these like extended family members from biological families and from like SEP families, and I swear the family is so big. it's so interesting just because we've built our family in such an unconventional way. It's like, I don't know, you hear my son talk and he's like, I have, I've never gotten a brother.

I have so many sisters. He has like two SEP sisters. He has all these foster sisters. It's like the definition of family is so different

in ours.

[00:22:40] Tiffany Sauder: Uh huh. That's sweet. So, how old were your kids when you started your business then? I mean, it's all hard, but I found the early years to be especially hard.

Taxing from a time perspective.

[00:22:51] Jackie Hermes: So Ari was. I want to say, So he was little and then we started fostering shortly after the time that I started the business to perfect time to do

it.

[00:23:06] Tiffany Sauder: word. Yeah. Oh, there's never a good time for it. Busy people are the ones who run the world, right?

[00:23:11] Jackie Hermes: I know. I know. We, uh, we went to New York for like part of a summer and we were like working half days and we like found an Annie to come for half days for Ari. and then we were like exploring the city for half days and staying in Brooklyn. It was super fun. And of course, like when you're not living your normal life is the time to make big life decisions.

And we were like, we should sign up to be foster parents. So we like filled out the applications and everything when we were there. And then when we got back to like normal life, we were like, what in the world did we do? Like, this is a lot. and yeah, I mean, I'm really, really glad that we did it. And my ex husband's family.

they started bringing in like babies from the hospital and they fostered babies from the time that they were born until they were adopted.

And then I have a number of people in my family who are adopted, including cousins that were adopted from Russia. so we both had adoption in our

[00:24:10] Tiffany Sauder: in your heart. Yeah. Yeah. that's so special. That is wild. when your kids were growing up, did you guys do daycare nannies? What was kind of your childcare solve a mother in law who lived in or something?

[00:24:22] Jackie Hermes: so His mom took care of the kids one day a week My mom took care of the kids one day a week as though having kids young we stuck around our families Which I'm very grateful that we did and then I actually negotiated a four day workweek very early on At my corporate job because I started the business on the side

So I would work four, 10 hour days, and then I would stay home with my son on Fridays. And that is when, during his like nap times is actually when I was like trying to start the business

[00:24:53] Tiffany Sauder: You are like full time hustle. I love it.

[00:24:57] Jackie Hermes: Yeah.

[00:24:58] Tiffany Sauder: I love it so much.

[00:24:59] Jackie Hermes: I was always up to something I swear my family was like you're doing what I remember sitting my dad down and be like I'm starting a company at like some Chinese restaurant. He was like, what you're doing. Oh, okay. He's now he doesn't even bat an eye

[00:25:15] Tiffany Sauder: Yeah,

[00:25:16] Jackie Hermes: him what I'm up to. He's like, all right.

try the things. So does your husband now have a, like a similar risk profile to you? Is he just like, let's just watch the circus run or Oh yeah, well, my ex husband is the one who got me into all of this stuff in the first place because he was always listening to entrepreneurship books and he was like, I think I want to start a company. And I was like, you're nuts. And he convinced me to do all this stuff. So he also had a similar, you know, like love for entrepreneurship and whatnot.

And then my husband, Ryan, mean, he's a CFO, like he's a finance guy and he was not entrepreneurial or maybe he didn't know it yet when I met him and he quit his job and started consulting in 2021 and now consults full time.

[00:26:05] Tiffany Sauder: so that's awesome. So you guys have some level of flexibility for both of you

[00:26:08] Jackie Hermes: we do. Yeah.

Which is pretty cool.

[00:26:10] Tiffany Sauder: hmm. Mm hmm. That's very cool Very cool. So what I talk about living a life of and and Not feeling like life has oars But like how do I figure out how to get to the next level of complexity? How do I? Figure out how to make saying yes to fostering kids be right in our lives and not give up more than I need to.

So what's the like next and that you want to add? And it can be 10 years from now, I don't know, but what, what do you want to add yet to your life, Jackie?

[00:26:39] Jackie Hermes: Ooh. Well, I have, another company idea. We'll see. We'll see on that one. I'm really, really excited about the next stage of this one. So, and dedicated to this one. So, that's a maybe. I have five years until all the kids are in college. So, Yeah, That one, we already have plans for what we're going to do.

probably I would love to travel somewhere every three to four months and have, different places that we're staying and kind of seeing the world. I think that's one thing that I started with having kids younger in my life. I didn't do as much traveling as I wanted. So there's just so much that I want to see.

[00:27:24] Tiffany Sauder: How does it feel to like, cause I still have a three year old. so my kids are so far apart. I'm going to be raising kids till I'm 84 years old. Um, I'm going to be driving to the elementary school, like actually like 17 years, it's just insane. But when you say we're five years away from all of our kids being through college, how does that like feel as a mom?

I'm sort of like looking into my future self and. You're much, you're younger than I am, but you know what I mean? Like, what does it feel like? What's it feel like to say that and to see the kids at this age and to feel your family in this stage? How does it feel? Yeah,

[00:28:01] Jackie Hermes: It's kind of weird. Like I have a 17 year old that is preparing to go to college next year. And I never thought that I would be at this point at this age. And I mean, frankly, you know, 15 years ago, I didn't even know if I was going to have kids. Like I was not even sure that that was in my future. And so, Fast forward, a lot of my friends are like having babies right now, right?

And so it's very, it's exactly what we were talking about at the beginning. It is not what I planned. And if I looked into my future long ago, it's not what I would have predicted for myself. But it's cool. Right. And I'm excited for it. And we have really good relationships with, with our kids. I think they're all going to be back to travel with us and to visit us and all of that good stuff.

I think, yeah, we, they're pretty open with us and we always ask them like, are you going to come back and go on vacation with us? And they're like, yeah, why don't we, we're not going to be able to afford to go on vacation. Of course we're going to be back. And I'm like, okay, cool. Well, I'm glad that's the reason.

[00:29:11] Tiffany Sauder: 23. And the cool thing is they're very young grandparents. That's the harder part about having kids older is like, yeah, you did a lot of cool things when you were young, I need to like legit live to be like 110 to see some things, you know? So ,

it's like, it's a different, and like you say, there's no right or wrong way.

It's all wonderful and fun and hilarious, but,

[00:29:41] Jackie Hermes: I look at all my friends that are having babies now though, and I'm like, man, you are so emotionally stable. For your children to grow up with like, if my children had their like early childhood right now, I was absolutely not this stable in my earlier mid twenties. So, I think it's a different experience.

[00:30:02] Tiffany Sauder: yeah. Oh, I had one. We, our kids are really far about my first one I had in our twenties and our, our last, I had at 40 and I say, I mean, it is. Wildly different. I was at a track meet last night and we know this family that has eight kids and their youngest is 15. he was like a free range chicken. I mean, I don't know that he'd been home in two days, you know?

And I was like, cause you just care about very different things

[00:30:27] Jackie Hermes: Oh yeah.

[00:30:28] Tiffany Sauder: parent.

[00:30:29] Jackie Hermes: Yep. Even from the, my oldest to youngest, the oldest is always, she's always like, Oh, like I would have been grounded for that.

And I'm like, well, I'm sorry. You, you're the guinea pig. And. You got the hardest rules and also you broke a lot of rules like you could have

[00:30:47] Tiffany Sauder: maybe

you needed it. Yeah

[00:30:50] Jackie Hermes: are you an oldest Jackie or what's your birth order?

Oldest.

Mm hmm.

[00:30:55] Tiffany Sauder: what I would have guessed. Yeah.

[00:30:56] Jackie Hermes: Yeah.

[00:30:57] Tiffany Sauder: For sure. Well, I, I, mean, they're just usually very achiever oriented and, like confident and take charge. And, like, you don't ask, you're not like looking around asking for permission to go do the things.

You're just like, I'm just gonna go.

[00:31:14] Jackie Hermes: Yep, always happen like

[00:31:16] Tiffany Sauder: can come or not come. Whichever

they'd like to do.

[00:31:19] Jackie Hermes: not even looking behind me

like oh see ya

[00:31:22] Tiffany Sauder: Here we go.

Here we go, here we go. Okay, one other question and then we can give people a chance to kind of know where to find you But what advice would you give your 24 year old self? We were just kind of talking about this a little bit I guess but what advice would you give your 24 year old self?

[00:31:39] Jackie Hermes: When I talked to my dad about this, He was talking about over committing and how he wishes he would have slowed down when he was at a younger age. And now he, now that he's in retirement, he's actually moving to Spain and he's like living this beautiful life that is so much slower and is so, you know, incredible.

And he's getting to like explore hobbies and just find so many things that I don't think he ever thought that he would do. See, you know, and I feel like I'm starting to see some of that as I'm slowing down and resting and, you know, like having weekends where I can hike and go for walks and I wasn't doing any of that many years ago and I'm glad that I worked hard and was able to get here.

And also like, there is no timeline. You know, there's no prescribed timeline to get anywhere, and you can take however long you want, and you don't have to like, work yourself half to death to try to achieve something on some self imposed timeline, so, I don't know, just slow down and enjoy it.

[00:32:53] Tiffany Sauder: I love that. I think we'll end with that. I think that's such wise advice. I think time You think about it so much differently as you get older. And so I love, love, love, love that sentiment. well we will provide links and show notes, Jackie, but if people are wanting to kind of get closer to your advice and perspective on life, where's the best way for them to hang out with you?

[00:33:17] Jackie Hermes: Yeah, LinkedIn, LinkedIn is probably where I spend the most time, um, jackiehermes. com and yeah, there's links to find me all over the place in both of those places.

[00:33:28] Tiffany Sauder: Awesome. Well, thanks for joining me, Jackie. It was awesome to get to hear your story a little bit more up close and thanks for sharing your experiences with my audience.

[00:33:35] Jackie Hermes: Yes. I loved this. Thank you so

[00:33:37] Tiffany Sauder: Yeah, absolutely.