Feb 20, 2025
Podcast
Why You Feel Alone as a Leader with Brian Kavicky
Link to book your call with Brian.
In this episode of Scared Confident, Tiffany Sauder invites listeners into a behind-the-scenes coaching session between Rachel Downey, CEO of Share Your Genius, and Brian Kavicky, business advisor and sales leadership expert with Lushin. As Rachel works to scale her company, she faces a familiar founder challenge - how to transition from being the driving force behind everything to leading a team that can execute without her.
Rachel opens up about the pressure of hitting big business goals, the struggle to delegate with confidence, and the tension of watching her team do things differently—sometimes not as well as she would. Brian offers direct, practical coaching on how to let go of perfection, set a culture of accountability, and create space for her team to grow through failure.
This episode explores how founders can trust their teams while maintaining high standards and why learning to let go is a crucial step in long-term growth.
Key Takeaways:
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Timestamps:
(00:00) Intro
(01:54) Rachel's business challenges
(04:25) The urgency and pressure that founders face
(07:03) Defining success and accountability
(10:52) The importance of communication
(16:44) Balancing leadership and delegation
(23:12) Team performance and client satisfaction
(23:29) Accepting imperfection in leadership
(24:29) Balancing quality and client expectations
(26:59) Learning from failures
(31:11) Client relationships and transparency
(38:39) Managing pressure and expectations
Brian Kavicky [00:00:00]:
If 80% is acceptable, why spend the extra 20% to make it perfect? So what you have to live with is that there is a level where the customer is thrilled, but it's not as good or high quality as what it could have been. But it doesn't actually matter to anyone except you. And that's what you have to let go of.
Tiffany Sauder [00:00:20]:
I'm a small town kid, born with a big city spirit.
Tiffany Sauder [00:00:23]:
I choose to play a lot of.
Tiffany Sauder [00:00:24]:
Awesome roles in life. Mom, wife, entrepreneur, CEO, board member, investor and mentor. Seventeen years ago I founded a marketing consultancy and ever since, my husband JR and I have been building our careers and our family on the exact same timeline. Yep, that means four kids, three businesses, two careers, all building towards one life we love. When I discovered I could purposefully embrace all of these ands in my life, it unlocked my world. And I want that for you too. I'm Tiffany Souder and this is Scared Confident.
Tiffany Sauder [00:01:01]:
Welcome back to another episode of Scared Confident. I'm Tiffany Sauder and I have a really special kind of format for you. Today we are actually going to be listening in on a live coaching session between Rachel Downey, who's the founder of a podcast production company called Share Your Genius, and Brian Kavicky, which if you've been around for a minute on this feed, you have certainly heard his voice. He's a business and sales coach and helps people really break through levels of complexity and ceilings both in their head and in their businesses. Rachel and I have both worked with Brian me for like a decade, Rachel for a couple of years. And I also coach and am involved with Share your Genius as a customer with this podcast and then also as an owner. So our relationships are very much intermingled and we have a lot of context for one another as Rachel and I have been working through business planning going from 2024 to 2025. Obviously going through the financial goals and talking about the team and just what this next year needs to look like.
Tiffany Sauder [00:02:06]:
I was feeling a very familiar journey start to come forward with where Rachel is at, where you're going from this very founder centric company where part of your ability to throw everything on your back and charge the frickin hill was what got you to here. But you have to start building out a more complex toolbox to be able to get the organization through this level of complexity which is at a place where Rachel cannot do it all because it's going to continue to stay the size it is if she does. But this trust of how do I delegate? Well, how Do I get my team set up with clarity? How do I get do that? And then once I do that, how do I hold them accountable? Because in the back of your head, as a founder, you've got this little voice that yells at you and says, nobody's ever going to do it as well as you do. Which Brian actually told me once is true. So we're going to talk about a lot of that. Brian was such a just sage mentor in my own journey through this patch of road. And so as Rachel and I were working through this, I was like, you have to have this conversation with Brian and said, would you step into a big, brave sandbox and actually share this conversation with our listeners? So this is not like they already had this talk and now they are rehabbing it for all of you. This is like, actually in the middle of it.
Tiffany Sauder [00:03:28]:
This is Brian, Rachel's coaching session, and we are listening in. The goal of this next hour or so together, 45 minutes, is for Rachel to walk away saying, I know where to start. I have a confident start. I have a better understanding of these two things, which can kind of be a little squishy to get your head around, and you're not sure if you want to do it. And some really confident places to start. So this is where we're entering this conversation, and these are the players, and I'm going to kind of be like a sideline facilitator, almost taking on the voice of the listener. So, Rachel and Brian, thanks for coming on the show. Thanks for doing this experiment with me.
Tiffany Sauder [00:04:03]:
I think it's so brave. Thanks for coming on.
Rachel Downey [00:04:06]:
Happy to be here.
Rachel Downey [00:04:07]:
You might say it's a Scared Confident moment.
Tiffany Sauder [00:04:11]:
Yeah, Rachel. Rachel loves all the things. Okay, maybe Rachel, you start off just by. If you guys were starting, I'm sure you would just be like, okay, Brian, this is kind of some things I tried last year. Some places I lack confidence. So you guys start, and I'll be listening with the rest of them.
Rachel Downey [00:04:25]:
I think for me, this feels like a do or die year in a way. And I know that's not necessarily, like, exactly true, but that's how I feel. And I feel as if the sense of urgency that I have is one that I want the team to have. And so I'm kind of struggling a little bit with, like, how do I help them feel encouraged, but also like, I'm not playing. Like. Like, I'm nice, but I don't want to be as nice as I have felt I tend to be. And I do think I've Done a pretty good job setting the tone. We have big goals that we need to accomplish this year.
Rachel Downey [00:05:02]:
I feel like I have not changed direction at all. Like I have said the same thing for the last three months now, which is new for me. And I do feel like we're getting into a good rhythm of like the right meetings. We have like some scorecards that we're all looking at and I'm reviewing metrics with the team every single week. I mean, it's week three of January, so those are some things that we have implemented. But, but I do, I mean I am like for the last month and a half, I have been waking up at 3am three times a week and I am having a hard time going to sleep because my mind is not shutting off with all the things that I know we need to be doing and things like that. And so I still feel a lack of, I guess, confidence in that everyone knows what we need to be doing and why we need to be doing what we're doing. And also just making sure that I'm not adding more distraction with the more ideas I get.
Rachel Downey [00:05:52]:
Cause I know that the minute I start to feel scarcity of pipeline or operations or we made a mistake there, my immediate knee jerk reaction is to take it back over and just do it myself. And that won't scale. So those are all my words for you as, as we kind of jump into this. But that's what comes to mind when I think about what has to happen for this year.
Brian Kavicky [00:06:14]:
Okay, let's figure out what is true here. Is it true that this is a do or die year for me?
Rachel Downey [00:06:21]:
Yes.
Brian Kavicky [00:06:21]:
Why for you? Yes.
Rachel Downey [00:06:23]:
Because I am going on a decade of doing this and I need. You are going to make me cry. I need this to be successful. Like I need to achieve what we have set out to achieve. Like it needs to happen now. Like I'm, I'm ready. I'm ready.
Brian Kavicky [00:06:40]:
But how are you measuring that? Are you measuring it of we've accelerated our progress faster than we've ever moved or we did it or not? Like is it binary or is it measured by progress?
Rachel Downey [00:06:52]:
To me right now it is binary. Like I have set a goal that I felt like was achievable. And so for me it will feel personal to me if we can't get it to what I've set out to achieve.
Brian Kavicky [00:07:03]:
So there's a little bit with that that you're creating an environment that makes it tougher for you and your people to work in because of that, because.
Rachel Downey [00:07:14]:
Of my own personal Feeling.
Brian Kavicky [00:07:16]:
Yeah. Because, okay, if you're going to rely on other people to help you achieve what you want, and you're saying this is so important to me that it's do or die. What is the degree that you think they're going to invest in that? Like, unless they worship you.
Rachel Downey [00:07:34]:
Yeah.
Brian Kavicky [00:07:34]:
They're not gonna go, okay, I'll take a bullet for you, Rachel.
Rachel Downey [00:07:39]:
Yeah. I have not communicated to them that this feels do or die, if that's helpful. So it's helpful.
Brian Kavicky [00:07:47]:
But is that true? Because your communication doesn't always mean I've stated it. Could they have sensed it? Could they measure your mood by what's happening as you're going through this? All that stuff?
Rachel Downey [00:07:58]:
I know I can be wrong, but I feel like I do a pretty good job of being like, the opportunity is here for us. Like, we've done the work. We have the capacity. I think the tone that I have set is that I'm not changing course. I'm very clear on what we need to do. I think that's probably the shift that is different because I don't feel like I've ever shown up as strong as I am now. And so I think that's the piece that, like, personally attached to the. To this outcome, but I've not communicated that to the company.
Brian Kavicky [00:08:30]:
I think it's okay to be personally attached to the outcome. I think it makes it harder that you're deciding that it's binary to success or failure. Because if. If you get 99% there, are you going to still call it a failure? Like, if you miss your number by a dollar, are you going to go, oh, I died?
Rachel Downey [00:08:50]:
No, but I think I'll be pretty disappointed.
Brian Kavicky [00:08:52]:
Well, I would caution you that that's adding pressure and that by just thinking that way, you are making this harder than it actually is. People do well under pressure. Like winners like pressure, and they like that pressure, but there's a level of pressure that you can't take anymore that causes the. Okay, you said my mechanism is I'm going to jump in. That might be pressure you're putting on yourself that nobody else really knows about because you haven't really told them there's that much pressure to you. And on top of that, you're putting pressure on you that's not even potentially real.
Rachel Downey [00:09:28]:
Yeah, that's fair. Maybe I'm being a little dramatic with.
Brian Kavicky [00:09:31]:
Yeah, because. Because it's. It's so much easier to problem solve and to figure it out and to get things going and to. To get acceleration and all that. Stuff if I'm not putting extraordinary pressure on myself to do that, I can work from behind and have a little pressure, but not that. So I'd be careful.
Rachel Downey [00:09:48]:
I think where some of this is coming, though, from, too, is like. And I don't mean this to sound like. I don't know if the right vocabulary word is cavalier, but I don't mean it to sound like, not a big deal, but I don't actually think it's hard. What I mean by that is, like, I feel like I know what to do. Like, I genuinely feel like it. And so for me, it's like, that's what feels so frustrating, because if it's not happening at the clip in which I think it can happen, that's the piece that starts to feel like, what am I doing wrong? Because this is actually not that hard, and it just needs to get done. And. And so I think that's where I'm, like, feeling a little bit of, like, I don't know, frustration or, like, I don't feel the pressure in the sense that, like, this is so hard, I don't know what to do.
Rachel Downey [00:10:32]:
I feel the pressure in the sense of, like, why is it not done?
Brian Kavicky [00:10:35]:
Yep. And so that's a perfect place to be because you're taking responsibility of. What am I not doing correctly in order to make this happen. Given that it's so simple, it's so clear. All that. That's actually good mindset to have.
Rachel Downey [00:10:49]:
Okay.
Brian Kavicky [00:10:50]:
Okay. Next truth. What is the difference between being nice and being kind?
Rachel Downey [00:10:55]:
Difference between being nice and being kind. I don't know.
Brian Kavicky [00:10:59]:
Like, if you had to critique me for my work performance and you had to be nice, what. What would that sound like?
Rachel Downey [00:11:07]:
I would probably worry about your feelings a lot.
Brian Kavicky [00:11:10]:
It would be all about protecting my feelings.
Rachel Downey [00:11:12]:
Yeah.
Brian Kavicky [00:11:12]:
If you wanted to be kind, what would change?
Rachel Downey [00:11:16]:
I think I would still tell you what you need to hear, but I could do it in a way that's, like, empathetic, I guess.
Brian Kavicky [00:11:23]:
Okay. And empathetic typically comes from, I'm doing this for you as opposed to. To you. So nice is, I'm being careful with your feelings. Kind is, I'm doing this for you, so I'm telling you what you need to hear. And ultimately, this is meant to benefit you. That's kind. So you had a hesitation of, I want to be careful with my approach.
Brian Kavicky [00:11:46]:
As long as your approach is coming from a kind, I'm doing this for you, which ultimately could be to protect someone's job, and I want to make sure that you still work here next year. You can be kind by facts and telling the truth and all of those things. How they react emotionally or how they respond to that is not your responsibility, because you're giving them something that ultimately is meant to help them. Does that make sense?
Rachel Downey [00:12:11]:
Yeah, it makes total sense. And I think the piece I struggle with there, because I don't really have a problem being direct with people and, like, telling them what's on my mind. The problem that I have found myself in throughout my entire life, but most vividly now, is that because we've spent a couple years figuring out who we're going to be when we grow up, at least for now, I feel like I've been really nice because I've given people so much whiplash. And now that I'm clear on where we need to go, I feel like everything I've said in the past now makes it look like I'm a liar or, like, not a good person, if that makes sense. Because it's like I've changed the playbook. And that, to me, is what feels unfair. And that's where I start to feel like that's not kind. And then I have felt like I have to be nice and, like, care about people's feelings because I've been writing the plays as we go as well.
Rachel Downey [00:13:04]:
And so it's like, I don't feel like it's been fair to hold people to certain standards because I haven't created that culture of accountability because I'm like, well, we're kind of changing things so. Well, you're right.
Brian Kavicky [00:13:15]:
Like, but ultimately that's okay because you say, well, I have to be fair. I've changed so much. I have some responsibility that I can't hold them accountable. But how you described today is, I have clarity. I know what we're going to do. So. So isn't this the time where you could change gears to say, I'm going to hold accountability? Because now I am clear. Before I wasn't so I can give you grace, but now I am clear.
Rachel Downey [00:13:42]:
So are you saying, like, then you need to go have those conversations? Yeah. Okay.
Brian Kavicky [00:13:47]:
You can say the whole thing, like, hey, before I was changing things because it was Tuesday. Now I have clarity, and we're not moving off of that. So this is how I'm going to show up.
Tiffany Sauder [00:13:59]:
Brian, what do those conversations sound like? It's just like that.
Brian Kavicky [00:14:03]:
Yeah. Just the timeline of, hey, over the last couple of years, we were figuring out a lot of stuff. We were making some mistakes. We were trying to figure out where our best fit in the market. Now that we know that and we know what we have to do, this is how I'm going to show up. This is how we're going to operate. This is what your responsibilities are, all of those things. Are we clear? Is that clear to you now? And you can also make a promise.
Brian Kavicky [00:14:28]:
I will only change something if I find that what we're doing is not working. And there's long stand, like make a condition of I promise not to pull the rug out from under you in this direction unless something like X happens. Because it is different now.
Tiffany Sauder [00:14:45]:
I experienced in that because I was a young entrepreneur also in very influenced by the outside world. So I would like bring in initiatives and once I started to get really clear on what we were going to do, Even things like EOs, they kind of waited to see how real it was. And so you're kind of expecting them to be like, okay, here we go. Like, you know, but they, they sort of will wait a little bit to see if you're really being honest. And like, obviously every time you think that was the right thing to do, but you might find a little bit of that play out.
Brian Kavicky [00:15:21]:
So you had said, I feel like I've been repetitive, which is good. You should be repetitive. You have to say it 17,000 times for it to stick. That's a real thing. The next step, though, is to get them to say so. The way that adults learn is it's I say, then you say, I show, then you show. So you're at the. I just want them to say what I've been saying is your next goal.
Brian Kavicky [00:15:46]:
Get them to say so you say, okay, guys, just to be clear, what are our goals for this year? What are we doing? How are we doing it? Blah, blah, blah, everything you have said. And then when they get it wrong, say, okay, I'm glad we did this. Let's get clarity now. Say it again. But it seems super menial. But you got to get them to say it because it's not quite real until they repeat it back to you.
Rachel Downey [00:16:08]:
Okay.
Brian Kavicky [00:16:09]:
It's like you go up and you get married and the minister doesn't just go, you good with all the vows, they make you say it and they make you say it for a reason because it's real.
Rachel Downey [00:16:18]:
How many times do you do that?
Brian Kavicky [00:16:20]:
So there's actually a studied statistic for this. It's seven times per year. So seven times per year. That stuff should come up in meetings. And you can pick when those seven times are, but it's not like, 37. It's not a big number. Seven times does the trick. You just got to keep.
Brian Kavicky [00:16:37]:
Keep it coming up, like, start a meeting with it, all that stuff. Okay, so let's talk about the big issue. I feel like I want to jump in and take over.
Rachel Downey [00:16:47]:
Okay.
Brian Kavicky [00:16:48]:
Are you the best person to jump in and take over and answer honestly?
Rachel Downey [00:16:53]:
Depends on situation, but oftentimes no.
Brian Kavicky [00:16:56]:
But sometimes you are, Sometimes I am.
Rachel Downey [00:16:59]:
But there are several situations where I'm not.
Brian Kavicky [00:17:01]:
How do you measure if you're really, really good at what you do and your ideas are great and all those things? How do you measure whether Rachel is successful in the company? Like, what are your personal KPIs that say, I'm doing a good job today?
Rachel Downey [00:17:18]:
One is. It's not, like, quantitative. It's more qualitative. But when I see, like, specifically in our company, like, strategic leads, one of the big things for them right now is having more strategic conversations with their clients and, like, introducing new ideas to them and things like that. And so when they come and tell me what ideas that they've put in front of their clients or, like, what deals they're kind of working on and things like that, I see that as, okay, I've done a good job because they're doing something that they've not done before, and it's working. And then just things like that, but then also, actually things getting done. Because right now, and this is something that I've been struggling with, it's like, every idea comes from me, and that's not necessarily, like, a great thing or a bad thing. It just is right now.
Rachel Downey [00:18:03]:
And so if I'm like, hey, we need this completely overhauled, if I don't have to actually, like, touch it or it actually gets done, then to me, I'm like, okay, I did a good job because the thing that I said needed to get done actually happened. And then the other way that I know that quote, unquote, I'm doing a good job, is when people tell me how they've been, like, happy with our client or our teammate or just, like, the feedback our clients actually give us. That's how I know we're doing a good job. And then personally, because I do a lot of our sales, when I get feedback from prospects and they say things that are nice, like, I've never experienced this with a company that I've vetted, like yours or whatever. Like, to me, I'm like, okay, we're doing a good job. None of that is quantitative. I can give you some quantitative. But that's kind of generally how I think about it.
Brian Kavicky [00:18:49]:
That's what I was looking for. Except for that last one, which is sales, which is actually part of your role. All of those were about other people. Yeah, which is what it's supposed to be. So one of the big shifts that leaders make when they're going from founder to actually running a company that becomes self managed is that they measure everything based on what they're doing and they look at their people of me versus what they're doing. And so if you're looking through the lens of if these strategic meetings happen and if these ideas happen, if people are complimenting my team, all those things that indirect feedback of. Of telling you it is correct, because that is that right now you are where you have to measure yourself for the rest of your career. So the way you'll transition from that sales thing is that somebody outsells you and you'll go, oh, that's even better than what I could have done myself.
Brian Kavicky [00:19:44]:
And so you're always looking for, is my team out for performing me as my team, accomplishing things that I couldn't do myself, Is my team doing that? As long as those are how you're measuring success, you're actually doing it correctly. You have the foundation to test and measure and do that correctly. So that is positive.
Tiffany Sauder [00:20:04]:
Hey there, podcast listeners. It is no exaggeration to say that the work my companies and I have done with Brian and his team at Lucian have been absolutely game changing.
Tiffany Sauder [00:20:15]:
I would not be where I am.
Tiffany Sauder [00:20:16]:
Today without their experience and guidance. If you're struggling to grow your business, your profits, or grow your people, or maybe your business is growing, but it just isn't getting you personally to where you want to be. You have got to schedule time. Give Brian one hour of your life, and I promise that you will see the way forward a little bit more clearly. If you're interested in scheduling, there's a link in show notes. I promise it will help. Now back to the show.
Brian Kavicky [00:20:46]:
So if that is your metric, why do you feel like you have to jump back in? Because jumping back in means I'm failing. Why do you actually trigger. In other words, if I'm successful, if I don't have to jump in, I would never jump in again. Like, if somebody's like, you're only doing well if you don't get into the pool, I would just stand at the edge of the pool all day and go, I'm not getting in, because that'll mess up what somebody told me was good. Why are you doing that.
Rachel Downey [00:21:14]:
I think part of it is like, I guess on some level, like, I want to be in the mix. Like, I want to be needed. Like, I also have, like, the tension of, like, letting people go and do it. But then the minute I'm in it, for example, it's actually really hard for me to listen to podcasts now objectively, because every time I anybody's podcast, it doesn't matter. I just am sitting there, like, cringe with notes and, like, why things are annoying or why it sucks or whatever. And it's not even nice and objective and good. My thinking, but it's the same idea is like, when I jump into, like a meeting or whatever, I'm like, I'm just going to do it because I can't even handle watching somebody else do it because I don't know what that is. It's not necessarily like, I need to fix it, but at the same time, I'm like, I would not do it that way.
Rachel Downey [00:21:55]:
So it's almost like, better for me not to even be in the room because it bothers me so much. And that's the piece that it's still very personal to me and I don't know how to fix that.
Brian Kavicky [00:22:05]:
So all of that is also very good. So you wouldn't do those things on a podcast. You are better than a lot of your team in certain areas of their own jobs. You do have better suggestions, better answers. And you should also not be in the room so that you don't have to deal with all that tension in your head to just go, you know what? It's going to be fine. So you are better. You know better. You can do better.
Brian Kavicky [00:22:32]:
All of that is actually true. The bridge you have to come to is accepting that my hundred percent is never going to be what my team produces in any area. And I'm going to have to be okay with 80% of me is good enough.
Rachel Downey [00:22:48]:
I don't like that.
Brian Kavicky [00:22:50]:
I know nobody does, but I don't understand it.
Rachel Downey [00:22:53]:
Why can't that be fixed?
Brian Kavicky [00:22:55]:
It can be fixed. It's just not the phase that you're in to be fixed. Okay, so if we fast forward five to seven years, you're gonna have to actually hire people better than you, which will be the next scary thing. Because you've been better at everything for so long. You're seeing your team hitting metrics, getting stuff done, everybody's loving your clients, and you're going, I can't believe they love you, because I would have done that so much differently. And you're like, well, customer's happy. I don't care. And then you have to bring in somebody better.
Brian Kavicky [00:23:28]:
That's. That's really scary. But this phase is I have to accept that I am better, and their 80% is the best I'm ever going to get out of them. And as long as I get that, that's fine, because it's not me doing it. That's me spending times in the other areas that the business needs me to be and not worrying about the rest. Okay, so in other words, trust that they're worse than you and just live with it.
Rachel Downey [00:23:53]:
I don't want that. I think that's honestly, like, that's part of what's keeping me up at night is like, one of the people on the team is like, obviously, she's really actually starting to sell independently. Like, I'm not on these calls at all. And she's just telling me, and deals are getting done. I was like, okay, like, you sold it. That's great. Which is. Which is very relieving.
Rachel Downey [00:24:14]:
Like, it's actually very happy, exciting.
Brian Kavicky [00:24:16]:
So. So in that case, you're like, it's okay. You weren't in the room. You don't know that the conversation was really messy. You don't know that the client was confused 14 times, but she told it. You're like, wow, it's great.
Rachel Downey [00:24:27]:
It's done. But what I still feel really connected to, though, is. Which I think I should be, but is the quality of the product. And, like, I do feel, like, personally attached to it. So, like, if there's, like, an issue at the end of the day, that's still because of how small we are, to me, it's still a direct reflection of me. And that's also the piece I still struggle with because I'm like, I guess I'm trying to balance the. How do I get ahead of the issue before the issue arises, knowing that I can personally think very quickly on my feet in a lot of situations and resolve things before they become an actual issue. Whereas most of my team around me has no actual other experience to be able to even pull from.
Rachel Downey [00:25:10]:
And so that's the other piece I struggle with.
Brian Kavicky [00:25:12]:
Okay, so we're going to do that next.
Rachel Downey [00:25:14]:
Okay.
Brian Kavicky [00:25:15]:
Are you familiar with the idea of the law of diminishing returns?
Rachel Downey [00:25:19]:
Yes. But tell me, like.
Brian Kavicky [00:25:21]:
Well, I mean, it basically says that if 80% is acceptable, why spend the extra 20% to make it perfect? So what you have to live with is that there is a level where the customer is thrilled.
Rachel Downey [00:25:34]:
But I just I get that. But I'm also like, shouldn't we have a very high standard for ourselves?
Brian Kavicky [00:25:40]:
You should have a very high standard. But if that standard is above and beyond what the client asks for, wants, or needs.
Rachel Downey [00:25:48]:
Yeah.
Brian Kavicky [00:25:48]:
Is that worth it?
Rachel Downey [00:25:51]:
No.
Brian Kavicky [00:25:52]:
Okay, then there are cars on the road that burn $0 worth of gasoline per day. Zero. They don't even require gasoline. Does everybody buy them? No, because the people that care about that do.
Rachel Downey [00:26:04]:
It's fair.
Brian Kavicky [00:26:05]:
Tiffany, do you want to say anything?
Tiffany Sauder [00:26:06]:
Up to this point, I'm like, just walking down memory lane because I wrestled with a lot of these same things, Rachel. So I just think it's super normal. And this conscientiousness that comes with the work wanting to be amazing is kind of also attached to the fear that comes of losing clients. And it's like, if we are doing our best, always, it is making that part of my life as secure as possible, which is like, my actual vulnerability. And so just knowing it's about. It's almost overcompensating for what is actually secretly your greatest fear is that you can't actually deliver all the work anymore. And, like, I couldn't actually do every consulting presentation anymore. I couldn't actually, like, do those things because if we were going to grow, other people had to do work too.
Tiffany Sauder [00:26:59]:
And so you do start to have to feel comfortable with this learning and innovation cycle. And, Brian, maybe one of the things you could talk about in this that has been so powerful, I repeated this in at Element three, like, six weeks ago, where when your team is learning, you bring your client in on it.
Brian Kavicky [00:27:15]:
We need to do one more thing before we get to that.
Tiffany Sauder [00:27:18]:
Okay. I think that's so powerful, but okay, great.
Brian Kavicky [00:27:21]:
So it is up to you to set a high standard. But be careful, because you're doing this in more than one area. The high quality bar. You need to measure that. You're always upping quality versus it meets this binary test of awesome quality or not awesome. Because otherwise it's like, it's perfect or it's not perfect versus every time my team does something, it gets better and better and better. You have to shift to progress versus perfection. Because that says, my team's learning, my team's getting better, but if it's always perfection, they're always going to fail.
Rachel Downey [00:27:57]:
Yeah. And actually, like, as you're saying that, and this is where I'm like, you can check my thinking on this, but I'm thinking, like, I don't do that to my kids.
Brian Kavicky [00:28:05]:
That's where we're going Next.
Rachel Downey [00:28:06]:
Oh, okay.
Brian Kavicky [00:28:07]:
Great. Okay. So speaking of your kids, how did you teach your kids some of the harder lessons in their lives?
Rachel Downey [00:28:14]:
I mean, they just got hurt, and I was like, now, you know.
Brian Kavicky [00:28:19]:
So why don't you take that into this?
Rachel Downey [00:28:22]:
Because of what Tiffany just said. Like, revenue for me is everything. And so I'm like, if a client is mad or they leave or whatever and they go to a competitor, like, that is like, just die, please. That is, like, very scary.
Brian Kavicky [00:28:35]:
But this is where I think there's dangers. Because you said revenue is everything. I don't believe that. I think your kids have a higher ranking than revenue and goals for your children have a higher ranking than goals for your business. Right. So if you're. You're saying, my goal with my kids is that they turn out to be good people, good adults and all those things, and I'm getting them there by allowing them to fail. I'm allowing them to make mistakes.
Brian Kavicky [00:28:59]:
I'm allowing them to screw up. If I just let go of this is the year, and maybe I can have failures and I can do that. I might have to engineer it or accelerate it a little. But thinking that way of, well, my kids turn out okay, and they seem to be doing the right stuff. Why don't they just take what I'm good at and just be the moment and treat these people like my kids just the same and let them fail? Because if they're not failing, they're not learning a thing. If you're always swooping in and solving a problem before it becomes a problem or letting an issue never get to the surface because you don't want the client to see him doing all that stuff, nobody had a consequence. Nobody's going to change anything, and nobody's going to learn fast. They have to fail.
Rachel Downey [00:29:46]:
Okay? We have had lots of failures along the way, and I have made many, many, many mistakes along the way. We had one this week, and being, like, totally honest, I was madder than I've ever been. Like, mad mad. And I had to, like, give myself a timeout mat, like, I didn't go communicate how mad I was to anybody. I think that's what's really frustrating me, though, is, like, I'm willing to let things happen. And, like, there's meetings that, like, I'm talking to a teammate this week, and I'm like, do you need me in the meeting? And she's like, no. And I'm like, okay, there are pieces of that, but on the same side, it's like, when is it enough? Like, that's kind of where I get frustrated, where I'm like, failing forward is fine, but making mistakes is not, if that makes sense. Like, I don't know how to balance some of that stuff.
Brian Kavicky [00:30:32]:
So making mistakes is not correct. What you're looking for is new mistakes. So new mistakes are good. Repetitive mistakes are always structural problems. So you never have a people problem. You always have a structure or process problem. So if you see consistent mistakes, the question you ask is, what in my business allowed that mistake to happen more than once? And that's what I have to go fix. But it's not a person.
Rachel Downey [00:31:02]:
Okay?
Brian Kavicky [00:31:03]:
If it's a new mistake, then it's, oh, now you know. And then the question is, so what are you going to do different next time so that this doesn't happen? Now, one of the things that Tiffany's referencing is everybody gets scared of. Well, I don't want the clients to see. I don't want them to experience that. Sometimes you do, sometimes you don't. But if you're worried that things are going to get bad from the client level, what you can do with some of your relationships is give your clients a heads up. So I go, hey, Rachel, Tiffany's in the middle of learning some really good lessons, and I need her to fail on something. And it's going to probably happen in your meeting.
Brian Kavicky [00:31:39]:
I just want you to know that. I want you to treat it like normal, but know I have your back, that this is going to be a lesson learned. So just have the meeting. I'm not going to tell you what it is. Just react normally. You and I regroup. I'll fix it after. Cool.
Rachel Downey [00:31:53]:
I would never do that.
Brian Kavicky [00:31:54]:
Why not? Never says zero possibility. So why?
Rachel Downey [00:31:58]:
It would be very unlikely for me to feel very comfortable doing that.
Brian Kavicky [00:32:02]:
But what makes it uncomfortable?
Rachel Downey [00:32:04]:
Let me caveat. I will tell a client we're trying something new. If there's a mistake or something, please let me know. Or you can try this out at a discounted rate and give us feedback. I'll do that. But if it comes to, like, a person on the team doing a meeting or whatever, like, that would be very unlikely for me to enroll the client in that.
Brian Kavicky [00:32:23]:
Still asking why?
Rachel Downey [00:32:25]:
I don't know.
Brian Kavicky [00:32:26]:
Can I tell you what my gut is? What is you don't want your clients to know that your business has defects because you've taken this as your personal badge, your personal family crest, everything about you. And you're putting so much weight on this that having them know that your people aren't perfect and that you make mistakes. You think that's a chink in the armor?
Rachel Downey [00:32:48]:
I don't believe that.
Brian Kavicky [00:32:49]:
Okay, what is it then? What's the worst thing that can happen if you tell your client, I need one of my people to fail on your watch?
Rachel Downey [00:32:57]:
Because if I were the client, I'd be like, no, like, I need people to do the right thing. I'm paying you to do this. Why are you giving me a.
Brian Kavicky [00:33:05]:
My answer would be, I am going to do the right thing and you are going to get what you're paying for. I just need a favor in between because what I could have done is stepped in and prevented this, but it's not going to help them be a better account manager for you. So this is what I need you to do. So your fear is real and what you think will happen. I will tell you. Nearly 100% of the time, people get excited and they go, oh my gosh, I've had my people learn that lesson. Or I've had that. I'm happy to participate.
Brian Kavicky [00:33:31]:
I got it. And they actually do a great job of being nice to them and nurturing them through it and going, no, we're not going to do that. I'm actually disappointed. And then they call you up and they say, rachel, it went perfect. I think they learned some lessons. What's the fix? As long as they know Rachel has my back, they'll do anything.
Rachel Downey [00:33:54]:
Okay.
Tiffany Sauder [00:33:55]:
My experience has also been it's such a different relationship that starts to get formed with the client because the fact that you saw it coming gives them actually a ton of confidence that you're really managing the business and your people well. And all of them have been in a high growth opportunity, a project they said yes to, that they didn't have all the capacity for. Like, they see some version of their own career and whatever you just called them for, and they're like, yeah, we are all trying to build solving capacity in our companies, all of us. And that only happens with experience. And you only get to give them experience if they don't feel the safety net underneath them and they're in the room all by themselves. And you actually get to see what they do. And it is. I about pooped my pants the first two times I did it because it kind of like only matters with the really consequential clients.
Tiffany Sauder [00:34:44]:
And it changed our relationship because you started to say, look, we're growing a ton. You know, we're putting our people through these training thing. I have to have them be able to do a first presentation on their Own. So this is the one. I want you to know that that's where you fall in this. I've practiced with them. I think it's going to go well or whatever it is. But if it doesn't, I'm going to touch base with you within four hours of them leaving your office, and we're going to debrief how it went and if there's anything that needs to happen, we're going to make it right.
Tiffany Sauder [00:35:11]:
It is about still delivering, but they know you're running and managing and understand your business. And then they'll call you someday and be like, hey, remember you and you were training that young person. What platform are you guys using? Like, it totally changes the dynamic of the relationship from client, vendor to, we're like just two people on a journey trying to do the best we can, solving like crazy and learning in the real world.
Brian Kavicky [00:35:35]:
That's important because clients love to know that you're so proactive because you. You've already experienced that where you sell them, and they're like, do we get to work with you? And you're like, no, I have a great team. So when you re enter their lives and say, I've noticed something with your account. I've seen a sense of failure. I'm going to let it fail on purpose to teach my team a lesson. Here's what we're going to do about it. They're like, oh, you're still involved. Thank you.
Brian Kavicky [00:36:00]:
In the short term, as you drum up the courage to do this, you can do it a secondary way where you can show up in the meeting as a observer and say, you run the meeting. I'm not going to get involved. I just want to be there so that you're there to undo it. But you got to sit there quietly and let it get bad to say, is it okay if I step in here and rescue? That's the other way to do that. But that is not as proactive, which means now the client thinks you're trying to save something instead of you're actually using it for a purpose. But regardless, the thing that you're working to build is how do I engineer small failures or allow failures to happen so that my team learns faster? And that means every time there's a failure, instead of getting angry, say, what did you learn from that and what are you going to do? Because I'll take all your mistakes. As long as you learn something from it and you do something different, those are worth it to me. And that gives people safety.
Rachel Downey [00:37:02]:
Well, and I to be Clear. Like, I was intentional in saying I didn't let anyone know. I was angry and I felt like I dealt with it very well. But yes, I hear, do you know.
Brian Kavicky [00:37:13]:
What lessons were learned?
Rachel Downey [00:37:15]:
Yes, but I think it's worth going back and making sure that I know what lessons were learned.
Brian Kavicky [00:37:21]:
That is all the value. Every time somebody goes, here's what I learned. This is what I'm going to do differently. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Because that gives you the chance to correct that. So you didn't learn this, you didn't learn this. You can correct it before the next iteration.
Rachel Downey [00:37:33]:
Yeah.
Tiffany Sauder [00:37:34]:
I think in that you also start to be able to discern accountability or blame as far as, like, what'd you learn? Like, I find that's where I start to sort out is like, am I going to get this person to where they need to be because they're taking accountability of like, I should have done, I should have done, I should have done, or, well, this person did it. And like, everything is external.
Brian Kavicky [00:37:53]:
The other thing is that becomes a good mechanism to decide whether they're going to work out is that are they learning the correct lessons? Because if they're consistently not learning the correct lessons or the lessons that will advance them in the company, then that's where you go. I'm not sure that you have the capability to stop because you're not pivoting the way I need you to. And that's what you want is that independence where they can self diagnose, self troubleshoot, all of that stuff.
Rachel Downey [00:38:21]:
Okay, that's helpful.
Brian Kavicky [00:38:22]:
So does this answer some of the whys you have? Like, do you understand that what you're going through is normal?
Rachel Downey [00:38:28]:
I think so. I think I understand. That's normal.
Brian Kavicky [00:38:32]:
Yeah. It's just a phase. Not a big deal. I do think you're putting too much pressure on yourself and you'll do better without some of that pressure. You can't possibly perform at 100%. If I was up till 3am worrying.
Tiffany Sauder [00:38:44]:
About my business, I'm not up till 3am.
Rachel Downey [00:38:46]:
I just wake up at 3am well.
Brian Kavicky [00:38:48]:
You'Re not getting enough sleep.
Rachel Downey [00:38:50]:
Yeah, I don't know how to fix that. I kind of feel like that's just a little bit of who I am. I think the thing that's underlying that is like, if I don't obsess about it, all of a sudden, it's not where it needs to be. And so that's like the piece where I'm just like, I feel like I have to brace myself for feeling that Pressure. And, like, if we don't hit the goal this year, then I. I don't know.
Brian Kavicky [00:39:14]:
We'll hit the goal. But don't put it as die. So let me give you one last phrase to remember is I'm going to trust, but verify. I do have the right to verify. So when you. You asked a question of, do you need me in that meeting? And somebody goes, no, verify why they don't. Don't take anything at face value because that is actually you setting them up to fail. When you're like, okay, you go, okay, why don't you need me there? Well, because I have this.
Brian Kavicky [00:39:44]:
I have this. I've done this, blah, blah, blah. And you're like, okay, you don't need me there. So you have the right to verify as long as you trust first.
Rachel Downey [00:39:52]:
Okay, I like that. That's helpful. I still don't know how to solve the pressure thing, but that's okay.
Brian Kavicky [00:39:57]:
That is going to come down to, you have to decide that you're going to give yourself some grace, that you're not giving up on the goal. You're not relentlessly pursuing it. You're not going to take your foot off the gas, but you're not going to say, I'm going to be disappointed if I don't, because that is normally setting yourself up to disappointment.
Rachel Downey [00:40:17]:
But I will be disappointed.
Brian Kavicky [00:40:20]:
But don't think that way. Why don't you think in terms of when I exceed the goal, I will be thrilled. When we overachieve this year, I will be exhilarated. What? You're on the wrong side of that.
Rachel Downey [00:40:31]:
I see. All right, I can take that.
Brian Kavicky [00:40:33]:
That's all I got.
Tiffany Sauder [00:40:35]:
Rachel, what did you. What did you hear in this?
Rachel Downey [00:40:39]:
Most acutely, I think I'm on the right path. I heard that I need to continue to give the team permission to take things, and I can do that confidently by trusting and verifying. I think that setting people up to fail is something I can engineer in a way that reduces failure in real life. That to me, I wrote down as, like, I want to come up with a couple little challenges that I can hold myself accountable to for, like, trying with some people. And so that feels tangible and fun. I think just like, being okay with people not being perfect is also okay and just, like, giving them grace and the opportunity to learn. And, like, I also think I have to realize that, like, just because they are here now doesn't mean they'll be here forever. And I don't know why I'm holding the pressure of that.
Rachel Downey [00:41:29]:
They have to be that. That feels like I'm holding on to some weird, romantic vision of people who have built this company have to stay here forever. And I think the last thing is just the intentionality of, like, I really assume a lot of things and I move on pretty quickly. But I think staying in it for two minutes longer just to be like, okay, I hear what you said, but let's make sure you heard the right lesson. I think that's an important piece that I'm pulling out too, because I definitely need to lean in a little bit more longer than what I tend to do because I don't like to be in conflict for very long. So I think I need to stay there a little bit longer.
Tiffany Sauder [00:42:01]:
Sometimes whenever we set out to build something, I think we imagine all of the extrinsic things that we're going to need to do. Set up marketing teams, have accounting systems, learn sales, and do all this stuff. But we underestimate the journey that comes from managing the shedding of our own skin and the becoming new. Even though we're in the same place, it's the same brand, it's in the same title, it's the same. But this forced evolution that comes from an organization growing requires its leader to continue shed its skin and to continue to move forward. So the greatest gift that leadership gives us is a seat that requires constant attention to our own tuning of our mind and our mechanics and the way that we use our words and the way that we use our time. But it is definitely a place that requires intense attention. So, Rachel, thanks for so bravely and honestly sharing the journey of where you're at with share your genius.
Tiffany Sauder [00:43:03]:
And Brian, per use, thanks for the just like thoughtful questions. And the way that you allow us to unpack and hear our own words is a really powerful part of working beside you. So thanks for your time and wisdom today.
Tiffany Sauder [00:43:17]:
Thank you for joining me on another episode of Scared Confident. Until next time, keep telling fear. You will not decide what happens in my life.
Tiffany Sauder [00:43:26]:
I will.
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